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Is Microsoft Certification worth it?
Date: 16 June 96, 11:08 EDT From: Bradley BrownI know this isn't really a technical topic, but I noticed Microsoft was offering certification exams for various products: MFC & NT to name two. Are these tests worth the time and effort? Is it something employers look for on a resume?
Date: 17 June 96, 19:12 EDT From: Zafir Anjum Email: zafir.anjum@autodesk.comSome employers do look for MS Certified professionals, especially those who want to become a MS Solution Provider. If you don't already have a great resume it may be worth while to take the exams. The exams don't take much preparation if the subject is related to your day to day work.
Date: 17 June 96, 24:17 EDT From: Steve Mark Email: steve@otms.comI'm a full-time consultant and over the past couple of years have had 3 MFC contracts, 6 VB contracts, and a couple of Access contracts and have not been asked about it once. My $.02. Steve
Date: 18 June 96, 13:00 EDT From: Millard Ellingsworth Email: millard@rational.comAs someone who has done a great deal of interviewing of job candidates, I've yet to be swayed by standardized testing. As a developer myself, I'm betting that I can tell if the person on the other side of the table "has what it takes". Most of the candidates (and its a reasonably small sample) with the test certs have been posers who could study and take tests well. Which isn't their fault -- MS (and others in the certification business) want you (us) to think that passing the test means something it doesn't. I guess I'd be more of a fan if the tests were tighter in scope and if I was looking for a consultant, e.g., I wanted someone who _really_ knew the ins and outs of ODBC or OLE Server development. So I can't say I'm in support of the tests unless you are in a consulting organization where the appearance of capability is as important as actual capability.
Date: 18 June 96, 13:58 EDT From: Tim Craig Email: CraigTT@PE-Nelson.comI doublt that many employers look at it for developers. Actual experience is much more important. If you're in support or doing consulting for MS Office solutions then certification in those areas probably counts for something. The one thing that MS seems to be using it for is to gain entre to certain inner sanctum levels of developer support. We're strictly a C++ shop but to keep a certain level of MS developer support we apparently need people certified in Visual BASIC. From a developer who has spent considerable time wading through the MFC source, the big question is who's certifying Microsoft?
Date: 20 June 96, 22:27 EDT From: Ashvini Sharma Email: asharma@comshare.comI think the certification is worth it, although I'm saying this from my perspective as a developer. Atleast my development tends to be focussed on a specific topic, and preparing for certification, if done properly, does have the benefit of opening up your scope of awareness.
Date: 21 June 96, 18:55 EDT From: Brian Tinnel Email: image@fastlane.netAs in all things...It depends. If the tests are "easy" then nobody will care whether you passed or not. If they are comprehensive then people will start using that as a baseline. I think that in the furture more of the bigger companies will require contractors with some level of certification, just like they require that a LAN administrator have be certified through Novell. That doesn't mean they have a lot of experience, since anyone with money and time can take the class and pass the test without ever touching a REAL installation. Employers will still have to interview and make the best judgement they can.
Date: 11 July 96, 21:10 EDT From: Rick Braley Email: braley@sky.netI believe certification is worth the effort for a couple of reasons. First, a person who spends the time, effort & maybe money to become certified shows the desire to excel, to strive to be the best. Most employers will look favorably at this. Second, in a competitive environment, anything one can do to enhance their skill set should benefit them by making them more marketable. True, certification does not replace experience. However it does benefit the person who makes the effort to obtain it and the companies that encourage their employees to complete it.
Date: 13 July 96, 4:24 EDT From: Manish Chopra Email: manish@earthlink.netI thought of it as another project and if you have been working on VC++ / NT or related OLE MS software this just gives you a chance to get a free logo. Its cheap and easy to get it. Probably requires a few days effort only to brush up your experience.
Date: 14 July 96, 8:03 EDT From: Ian Hegerty Email: ihegerty@sina.demon.co.ukHaving done it (the base MCP level), I do think it was worth it not for in-depth knowledge, but because it gives you a good overview of some areas you may well not be interested in. For instance the style guidelines for Windows 95, SMP etc. I have subsequently found a basic knowledge of these side areas pretty useful.
Date: 19 July 96, 11:21 EDT From: Chuck Linn Email: chuckl@ccnet.comI have taken the MCP test years ago and have found it seems to impress those who are not real technical but I have never gotten a contract because of the designation. On the plus side it gives one at least personal satisfaction.
Date: 8 August 96, 16:13 EDT From: David W. Frye Email: dwfrye@dpcmail.dukepower.comI guess I'd have to say that it is the principle of the matter that is most important. It's similar to a college degree. It's good in the sense that shows you have drive and a desire to learn and better yourself. How do you weigh the cost of the education itself? I suppose experience is the bottom line. I'll be testing for WIN95 certification in a couple of weeks (8/22/96) and I, myself, will feel as if I accomplished something. Want to hear the irony? We've successfully rolled WIN95 out to several hundred folks so far and I was one of two involved in the design and delivery. Does the certificate make a difference? Yeah, I guess it's paper proof that I understand this stuff!
Date: 27 August 96, 12:42 EDT From: Annet Shelver Email: ashelver@ramosnet.comI think the Microsoft Certification is well worth it. I am a Certified Trainer and MCSE, and was an independent consultant for a number of years. The basic knowledge level that you obtain from studying for these exams is something you can build upon. It gives you a good background to build on. If you don't have that background, so don't know what you're missing. I also did the Novell CNE certification in 1993, but found the Microsoft tests to be of a higher standard. The Novell Cerification program is better organized than Microsoft.
Date: 27 August 96, 12:44 EDT From: Annet Shelver Email: ashelver@ramosnet.comI think the Microsoft Certification is well worth it. I am a Certified Trainer and MCSE, and was an independent consultant for a number of years. The basic knowledge level that you obtain from studying for these exams is something you can build upon. It gives you a good background to build on. If you don't have that background, so don't know what you're missing. I also did the Novell CNE certification in 1993, but found the Microsoft tests to be of a higher standard. The Novell Cerification program is better organized than Microsoft.
Date: 27 August 96, 12:45 EDT From: Annet Shelver Email: ashelver@ramosnet.comI think the Microsoft Certification is well worth it. I am a Certified Trainer and MCSE, and was an independent consultant for a number of years. The basic knowledge level that you obtain from studying for these exams is something you can build upon. It gives you a good background to build on. If you don't have that background, so don't know what you're missing. I also did the Novell CNE certification in 1993, but found the Microsoft tests to be of a higher standard. The Novell Cerification program is better organized than Microsoft.
Date: 30 August 96, 24:46 EDT From: Dave VanderVeer Email: webmaster@webcreators.comI'm considering getting certified MCSE I'm currently a CNE and an independent consultant. I'm trying to figure out the relative cost of the certification courses vs self study. Any help is appreciated. Dave VanderVeer
Date: 3 October 96, 12:58 EDT From: Herman R. Willett Email: hrwillet@dynasoft_.win.netWell, it's a piece of paper. I've worked with Ph.Ds, MBAs, and even CNEs; who haven't a clue about what they are certified in. As a perspective employeerer, I don't put much stock in a piece of paper, but on resumes backed by personal and professional references. So, what is the certification worth. With the certification and a five dollar bill, you can get breakfast.
Date: 8 October 96, 24:36 EDT From: Zal D. Email: zal@ppical.comWorking for a computer training company, I have noticed a large increase in the demand for Microsoft Certification. Although experience is a definite plus, it is not something tangible. That is how certification can help...it is something that can be put on a resume or portfolio. It also shows the individual took the time and effort to improve his/her skills in a certain area. Having Certified Professionals on staff decreases downtime and increases credibilty in your customers eyes.
Date: 28 October 96, 13:58 EDT From: HARI REDDYI think certification does give a boost to one's capabilitity.
Date: 30 October 96, 14:46 EDT From: Tom Bridgman Email: bridgman@pobox.comI'm currently pursuing MCP as a job requirement, and so far I'm not convinced of any value add. The "knowledge" tested by the certification exams borders on trivia, and relating soneone's ability to pass these tests to their ability to produce decent programs is like expecting that someone who has read how to play baseball will be decent hitter. In a hiring situation, I would place zero weight on an applicant's posessing certification.
Date: 31 October 96, 12:25 EDT From: John WalkerHitting is a physical skill, not an intellectual one, and therefore the analogy doesn't hold. A better analogy would be the application of coaching strategies and an understanding of the rules. While I wouldn't hire an umpire or a coach solely on the basis of the candidate's having read the rule book or studied game strategy, I certainly would expect that an umpire would have studied the rules (even the trivial ones) and that a coach would have studied strategy. For that matter, I'd expect a hitter to have studied hitting, and I'd hire batting coaches to ensure that activity took place in a formalized setting apart from actual games. I'd also want the candidates to have actually applied their knowledge, yes; but I'd be hesitant to hire anyone who felt that studying his profession was beneath him because he had experience. Ted Williams didn't just hit, he studied hitting; Earl Weaver didn't just manage, he studied managing; and major league umpires don't just umpire, they have to be "certified."
Date: 9 November 96, 9:02 EDT From: Jason Email: jasonwong@post1.comI'm a CNE and a Microsoft MCP (NT Workstation, NT Server, Win95) and hopes to complete my MCSE by end of this year (1997). From my experiences , I would think that the certification process does ensure that you have the necessary knowledge to do the job. Of course, it would also depends alot on your IQ and how you apply the knowledge. For me, I've personally find it useful, enriching (knowledge and career-wise) but like it or not, these are fundamental and would require experiences. But studying helps in the learning curve for practicals.
Date: 13 November 96, 8:34 EDT From: Tom Bridgman Email: bridgman@pobox.comJohn, My flawed analogy notwithstanding, I didn't say that practical experience eliminated the need for "book learning", and I would certainly look to hire someone who had both. However, if I had to choose between one or the other exclusively, I'd go for experience. The problem I have with the MS certification exams is that it is possible to pass them with out possessing any related experience whatsoever. In fact, experience is not likely to be of any help for the more "Trival Pursuit"-like portions. Sure, I understand why MS stresses this: it's easy to test, practical experience is not. But I've worked with MS certified developers and have seen some of them produce code that a college freshman would find embarrasing. I've seen no correlation between possessing MS certification and developer ability.
Date: 9 December 96, 14:57 EDT From: Jim WolfIs a piece of real estate worth the money? .... It depends...did it sell for the asking price? If so then it must have been worth it. The certifications are one beginning point (not THE beginning point) for discussion and study by the prospective talent and the client / employer. Both need to be careful because to get in beyond one's ability will be very unsatisfying for both parties. I think the venture is worthwhile as part of an overall program to increase proficiency / expertise. I think a good number of participants have benefited financially as well and the programs have been well received- with a few exceptions.. those who test well but know little. It's hard to argue with a positive track record.
Date: 10 December 96, 18:23 EDT From: Steve Berry Email: sberry@commanddata.comI am now studying for the Windows NT Workstation exam. I have some limited experience with NT workstation. Even if I decided not to take the exam I feel that I am much better off than just having experience with Windows NT Workstation for what we are using the operating system for.
Date: 17 December 96, 8:54 EDT From: Wayne G. Dengel III wouldn't bother... What matters is what kind of experiance you have. Not wimp experiance, but real hard core design, development ect.. Products brought to market. Products delivered ect... It's just like MBAs, they are a dime a dozen, and I have no respect. I know a person who is doing these test, and does not have a clue about programming. This person is in a position that he/she needs to know these things. What a waste. No productivity, no original thought. It's people like this who NEED these certificates to PROVE that they might know something. Otherwise there resume would show nothing REAL. Anyway, my 2cents..
Date: 20 December 96, 15:31 EDT From: Bill settenDave Vanderveer- you might check out your local community college for certification programs. More and more of them have brief courses leading to MCSE certification and they are pretty inexpensive. I don't think you can pass the MCSE tests just by studtying a book.
Date: 23 December 96, 12:07 EDT From: Stuart Mitchell Email: mitch@cynergy.com.auI'm about to embark on an MCSD program. Having done all the assessment exams I feel that I will have no problem with passing the certification. As some of the questions are, as previously expressed, trivial I estimate 70% of the questions I will answer based on my previous experience and training, and 25% based on educated guesswork. The other 5% will be "if in doubt, c". In my daily life I find the most important thing is not remembering losts of information, but how to find it in a hurry. I rely heavily on VCBooks online and the knowledgebase as well as diving in to the mfc source. The reason I'm going for certification was actually mentioned back in June. I work for myself, consulting to small to medium size business. While I have NEVER been asked what my qualifications are, I still think the majority of potential clients will swoon when they see an MS logo on my business card.
Date: 24 December 96, 20:25 EDT From: Tim CheathamI am in the process of MCSD certification. I think certification is worth the time and expense for the following reason: Much like a college degree; certification shows that an individual has the desire and fortitude to successfully complete a curriculum of study. Of course it does not replace experience. I don't think that is what this program was intended to do (How many Microsoft developers are certified?). In an industry where six-month product cycles are the norm, I think it is important to show that you are at least trying to keep up with the technology. With all things being equal, an employer will choose the certified person just as they will a degreed person. If it gives you an edge, it is worth it!
Date: 28 December 96, 4:59 EDT From: Rene Melendez Email: rene@3d-cam.comWell, although creativity is certainly an asset in our proffession, becoming Microsoft Certified doesn't mean your less creative then someone who isn't ceritified, it just means you passed a test. Anyways, I'm ticked-off cause I just got finished taking the NETWORK ESSENTIAS practice exam and there were several questions regarding Windows NT server. Can't you Microsoft guys save does questions for the NT certification exam?? P.S. I scored 841 out of 1000. Think I'm ready, anyone??
Date: 13 February 97, 17:29 EDT From: Jeff Marken Email: JMarken@ix.netcom.comMicrosoft Certification serves only one true purpose - to get people to go out there and provide solutions using (and therefore selling) Microsoft products. It's a very clever program to boost sales for Microsoft. On the surface it looks like it's for your benefit but it's yet another cog in that money-making wheel of the Microsoft machine of marketing. However, it really is a good program for individuals and companies because you do learn a lot about these products which you are or would proabably be using anyway. You cannot pass those tests if you don't know the product well. The certification can give you an edge when compared to an equally qualified competitor that does not have the certification. It looks good on a resume. There are businesses that do look for this certification when hiring an individual or a company. The bottom line is that even though Microsoft supports this program for its own personal benefit, it can help you too.
Date: 21 February 97, 1:34 EDT From: BradI'm done with the CNE and the CNA, and have two more tests to finish my MCSE and MCSD. I'm just doing it because it's very interesting and lots of fun. I also like timing myself tearing down my old 486 and putting it back together blindfolded, my record is 13 minutes 43 second (with a cordless screwdriver). tempest fugit
Date: 8 March 97, 21:41 EDT From: Mike Fox Email: foxm@kenyon.eduIt's important to realize, for both the MCSE/MCSD candiate and perspective empoyer, that certification alone isn't the end all answer to how compentent someone is. I've been installing, configuring and maintaining microcomputer systems (hardware and software) in both standalone and networked environments for over 10 years. I've worked extensively with Microsoft Windows from when it was released as Windows 286. I recall taking the Windows 3.1 self-assessment exam and failing it. I couldn't believe it. I still feel I have a pretty solid understanding of how to configure and support Windows 3.1. In fact, I lead a team of support staff who have to maintain over 400 PCs on a daily basis. I've been self-studying for the MCSE exams and am one exam away. I have put an incredible amount of time and energy into self-studying for all of the exams. Because of the effort I've put into passing the exams I feel that I know Windows NT, for example, better than I know Windows 3.1. So, yes, I think certification is a strong measure of your understanding of Microsoft technology. But experience is also a strong measure of your ability to apply that understanding.
Date: 14 March 97, 13:45 EDT From: Melvin Black Email: mblack@vkco.comI have a CNE and am one exam away from my MCSE and I am shocked to here so many people say that the certification is a waste of time and don't hold any weight during the interview process. At first glance, I assumed that the persons making these statements have never taken an MS exam before, or just ran into one of the "few" people out there that managed to gain a MCSE and didn't have a clue on how to use a computer. I've been working with computers for over 14 years and computer networks for that last 7 years and I found gaining these certifications to be a great benefit to my understanding of Novell and Microsoft products and marketability. I find the exams challenging, and almost impossible to pass without hands on. I find people who manage to pass MS exams with NO experience with the product to be very rare. I do believe that certification ALONE will not make you an expert, but it will help you become an expert faster than not being certified. The certification process forces you to learn things you would never learn without studying the product. I run into MORE so called "computer" people without certifications who don't have basic computer skills than those with certifications whose clueless about computers (actually, I've yet to meet any MCSE/MCPS that didn't have basic computer skills) my two cents...
Date: 15 March 97, 9:11 EDT From: Undel Williams Email: uawillms@minotaur.uwimona.edu.jmThe whole idea behind technical certification is to provide support for the various manufacturer products such as those of Microsoft or Novell. As customers deploy these products, they look towards the manfacturers for support who in turn train people to offer this support. Certified professionals benefit from the experiences of the manufacturer and the users of their product. It is all good to say that someone has 10 yrs of experience but the key question is Experience doing what? How broad an experience is it ? It has to be relevant and changing experience. Certification process, if done properly, provides a solid foundation for such experiences. Gone are the days, when professionals were satisfied with being a master of one particular area. In the 21st century, where integration will be key, professionals will have to be masters of severals areas rather than one. I am a MCPS,MCSE,MCSD,CNA,CNE and I have a MSc MIS. That my 2 cents !!
Date: 30 April 97, 18:49 EDT From: Zal Daruwalla Email: zal@ppical.comAs I read through all the comments, I notice that many make the valid point that experience is more important than having certification. Unfortunately, in a job interview, if all you can say is "I have experience", the employer will look at you and say that there is a line-up outside his door of 900 other people saying the exact same thing. This is where certification can help. If in a job interview, you can say "I am a Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer and have passed the following exams...", that may open up the employer's eyes as I can guarantee there is not 900 others lined up outside his door saying the exact same thing. Certification gives people a benchmark for employers and other IS staff to look at. I work at a computer training company dealing with this certification, and have helped find many people jobs....trust me, it's worth it!
Date: 16 May 97, 9:39 EDT From: Paul Folbrecht Email: pfolbrec@mail.execpc.comI've got a question.. WHY IS THERE NO EXAM ON VISUAL C++?? How many hints is MS going to drop that it wants VB to be the premier development language?
Date: 17 May 97, 9:26 EDT From: David Thompson Email: dthompsona@cix.co.ukThere is a Visual C++ exam - (70-24)! My company is requiring me to become certified. Also a recuritment agency here in the UK told me that being a certifed developer could add 5 to 10k to my yearly rate. So I'm studying hard.
Date: 19 May 97, 20:30 EDT From: Jim Howard Email: jnhtx@bga.comWhen I came out of the Air Force a few years ago I took and passed the Win 3.1 test. It seemed to help with HR types in getting my resume passed to the actual developers. Once I got interviewed by a developer, I had sample programs to show what I could do, since none of them cared about the cert. I am studying for the Developer cert because my company's management feels it will help us in marketing our products and services. My impression is that it is a good review of theory, and that it will get your resume past HR in a lot of cases. I think this happens because it gives HR someone to blame (i.e. Microsoft) if you are hired and can't cut it. For this reason I reccomend it to folks without BSCS degrees, or folks coming from the goverment into the private sector as a way of overcoming the FUD factor that goes with hiring this type of person. Having said this, I know of an individual who is getting his MCSE without any real sysadmin experience. He is strictly learning the test via the Transcender program, and has almost no clue as to what is actually happening. The bottom, certification with experience is interesting, but by itself does not indicate that a person really knows how to write software.
Date: 30 June 97, 3:02 EDT From: stephen Email: zollen@ican.netHi folks, I have already finished both server courses and workstation course, but I am not sure which elective courses should I take. Any good suggestion???? stephen zollen@ican.net
Date: 2 July 97, 15:15 EDT From: Peter Persits Email: persits@vni.netI think my newly aquired MCSD certification (MFC, OLE) was definitely worth it. I already heard from several employers that it would boost my income considerably. Also, if you have to deal with those illiterate recruiters that only care about the amount of YEARS of experience (not the skills) that you have, an MCSD cert is something that can help you shut them up.
Date: 12 July 97, 9:56 EDT From: Kevin Gregory Email: kevin@scholars.comYes I do believe that certification is well worth it. Currently there is a world-wide demand for IT proffesionals, and the certification exams are becoming an industry standard. As an online Learning Advisor for scholars.com I am always pleased when a student passes there first exam or lands a great job. I have seen first hand that certification truly does pay off. Where do you want to go today? www.scholars.com perhaps? Get Serious...................Get Certified! Sincerely, Kevin Gregory (kevin@scholars.com) Learning Advisor, Scholars.com Microsoft Online Institute Training Provider Find out more about online certification training: http://www.scholars.com
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