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Is C++ Dying?
Date: 11 November 96, 15:50 EDT From: Jeffrey Armbruster Email: jeffrey.armbruster@internetmci.comWhat about a discussion about C++'s mortality. Is it still growing? Has it hit its peak? I see more books about other languages filling bookstore shelves (especially Java) and shrinking space for C++ and Visual C++. What's going on? Is it dying? If so, why, and what's replacing it?
Date: 11 November 96, 18:19 EDT From: Bruce de Graaf Email: bdegraaf@datx.comOne would think that Java is going to take over the world. Only a few years ago, Dylan and ScriptX were going to cure everything from arithritis to Zairian Ebola fever. ...and ten years ago, C++ was going to take over the world. C++ is popular, but only now are people just beginning to code in C++ rather than in C on a C++ compiler. ...and before that, top-down design and go-to-less programming were going to make even dog catchers into programmers. In an analogous vein, didn't we solve essentially all of the problems with time sharing and virtual memory in the early eighties? How long did it take for Apple and Microsoft to implement this already understood knowledge? (Have they even done it today?) Is C++ dying? Naw... There's not much chance of intelligence, efficiency, common sense, or even honesty breaking out in the world! :) :) :)
Date: 12 November 96, 18:21 EDT From: Charles Johnson Email: charlej9@mail.idt.netI PREDICT: (who was that guy on the telly years ago who always started that way...Kresgin??) where was I...oh yes...I PREDICT: the internet is the biggest fad since the CB-Radio, and will be in fad for about as long, then it will settle into a low murmur and be around for another generation. JAVA won't go away. I PREDICT: (Lord, I still can't remember that guy's name...) C++ will be widely used and will cause the death of no other language (except maybe Forth :-) ). I PREDICT: COBOL will be in wide use for yet another 50 years, and that no other language will dissapear as a result (except maybe ALGOL... :-) ) I PREDICT: There will be C++ for years to come...the REAL question is whether someone will continue to *pay* for a C++ programmer! (Somebody tell me who that was, dadgumit!)
Date: 13 November 96, 10:15 EDT From: Bruce Detter Email: bdetter@srs.lmco.comC++ will not be going away, but it is being joined by a variety of other object-oriented and object-like tools. The tool of choice will depend on the development criteria. If development speed is important then tools like Visual Basic and Delphi, would be the choice. Application performance, and component development will still be C and C++, Web development and (potentially) cross platform development appears to be the realm of Java (VJ++?) (unless performance is an issue - C/C++ again). By the way a friend of mine (who has an Ada bias) says that Java is really a poor man's Ada with pretty packaging, and when the world learns to appreciate what Java can do programmatically, Ada will finally move ahead, or at least catch up, in popularity. The key here is object-oriented concepts, learn the concepts, and be flexible with the means of implementation.
Date: 16 November 96, 5:30 EDT From: Sixto GarciaI migrated to C++ from C like most other C++ programmers. I began using C because of the performance issue in writing video games. And all in all, C++ has been a great tool for this purpose. It is extremely flexible and allows you to sqeeze the performance you need from your machine. I think that microsoft has done an excellent job of starting the race for code automation and reuse with MFC. MFC can get an application up and running as quickly visual basic can. And you can just about forget writing a video game in any other language short of a low res sidescroller! I personally have'nt seen any diminishing of C++ literature on the shelves of any bookstores I've been in lately, and I do go often. Yes, I have seen a flood of other books, but they have'nt threatend the shelf space of any C++ literature. And I do believe and have been told, though admittedly my sources could be wrong, that Java is a C++ compatible language, and that J++ is a C++ package with active x built in as libraries.C++ is here to stay.
Date: 24 November 96, 19:43 EDT From: Darren Poulton Email: darrenp@taskey.comI would agree that it will depend on what you are writing for. However, with JIT compilers JAVA may make inroads into C++'s territory (although I have not looked at JAVA other than from the press). However, I have noticed a major decline in the number of non Internet and JAVA related books in our book stores in Australia.
Date: 26 November 96, 16:01 EDT From: Scott Kelley Email: skelley9@mail.idt.netWhat's all this about is C++ Going away. I hear all this talk about VB being so easy to develop in that even a monkey could do it. Well if a monkey could do it, why not hire monkeys. Your system would eventually look like a monkey wrote it. I tell my boss all the time that if you want a quality system, you need professional programmers, a tool that will give you flexibility and performance and good design. Anyone who is looking to develop a product super- fast is going to be very dissapointed with the end result. The reasons that made C/C++ great are still valid and no other language can touch them. Admitedly, you need talented, intelligent people to use it but isn't that who you should be hiring anyway.
Date: 2 December 96, 13:49 EDT From: Jeff Outlaw Email: outlaw@uit.netC++ is NOT dying. As for VB and other scripting languages that are "easier" to learn they lack the flexibility, and extendibilty of Visual C++. The developers that use these tools are becoming more and more dependent on these tools shielding them from the complexities of the OS. However without an understanding of basic Computer Science topics such as threading, Inter Process Communication, Deadlock avoidance, etc. the code produced will NOT perform well ( or may not even perform at all ). These concepts are crucial in todays 32 bit application development environments. When dealing with these concepts there is just no substitute for C or C++. As for User Interface design and graphics, the inheritance and polymorphism mechanisms found in C++ are unbeatable!
Date: 3 December 96, 15:33 EDT From: Mike Lastort Email: lastort@idsonline.comC++ dying? No way. I think the main reason you're seeing more Java books is that the Internet is gaining popularity. Java is a pretty cool language, but IMHO it is not powerful enough for "real-world" object oriented systems. If you want cool bouncing graphics on your web page, Java is great. If you want a language that can deliver an entire system that really does something, then I'd recommend picking up some of the disappearing C++ books quick!
Date: 4 December 96, 20:49 EDT From: J. W. McDonald Email: jarl@sequent.comWhat we're seeing here is the equivalent of shelf-space shrinkage. C++ is not dying but, from a 'new-ness' standpoint, it is getting older. Many of us (such as writers and publishers) are accustomed to rapid changes in hardware (every two or three years) and expect similar changes in all aspects of computers. Even applications, which grow old in a five-year time frame, may not give writers and publishers enough turn-over. Languages and operating systems have cycles measured in decades. There is no way that much money can be made offering the same books for ten or more years at a time. So, naturally, they trumpet the latest thing to sell books. Meanwhile, those of us actually using the languages and operating systems know that they are just hitting their stride after five or ten years. C++ hasn't been used very long at all (just a few years) in actual corporate settings. Windows NT is just starting its decades long trip. C and Unix have twenty or more years under their belts. And so it goes. The day that C++ is in maximum usage we may see far fewer books about it.
Date: 23 December 96, 12:30 EDT From: Stuart Mitchell Email: mitch@cynergy.com.auDarren Pulten is right that non-internet space is disappearing in Australian bookshops. However, thisis because we are basically a nation chasing one fad after the next. Yo-yos are back in the shops too. Unfortunately 95% percent of the population think that the US is just like all the sitcoms our media buy from non-syndicated regional stations in the US. I digress... 18 months ago the shelfspace was dominated by Learn Delphi in 21 days, in 7 days, in 4 minutes. Now it gets less space than VC++. I used to program in VB all the time but for the last 12 months I've been programming in VC++. Now, while many people say that VB and Delphi are RAD, I find that MFC is just as fast for me. The reason I say this is that I spent most of my VB time trying to coax it to do something that I can do robotica in VC++. As any thoughtful commentator will say, you pick the language that suits the task at hand. IMHO we need to be more like the old master craftsmen. If we learn the principles well, today that is OOA/D/P, then we can quickly adapt to the required tool. After all, nearly all of us learnt PASCAL, and have played with Basic. I predict that in 18 months Java will take its place beside VB, VC++ and Delphi and some new fad language will be dominating the lives of those who don't ever spend long enough learning one thing well.
Date: 3 January 97, 14:22 EDT From: David Fisher Email: dmfisher@gis.netThis discussion leaves out the "higher" purpose of java. That is the network computer. I agree that the internet has all the fad qualities of CB-radio. But the long shot of java is that maybe, just maye Sun can supplant Wintel with platform independent networks running a Java-oriented OS and Apps written in Java (all yet to be written, though Corel has a Java version of their Excellent suite (I don't know the the state of this)). I see the network computer as a long shot, and Sun knows this. But the rewards would be huge if it works. I believe it will fail for the following reasons: 1) The platform-independence that Java buys you ain't worth much, since WIntel is more and more enterprise-wide anyway. 2) people aren't dumb. They like to have their own PC at work, and certainly at home. They couldn't bring home work from a net-pc. 3) a net-pc cost as much as a wintel pc. 4) Sun CEO says the costs of maintaining a pc is $40,000 over 5 years. This is BS. It's may 10% of that, at most. I know where he got that number, but everyone knows that no one really ends up paying that much. He's assuming a premier level of technical support for each user on unlimited-incident basis, which everyone knows there are ways around (passing the support contact from user to user). And few people need that level of support anyway. He claims that a net-pc can automatically be supported over a network thus reducing tech support costs.. WinNT 5.0 will also provide this, thus negating every conceivable advantage of a net pc.
Date: 25 January 97, 4:17 EDT From: Matthew Deter Email: mld@deter.comNot only is C++ not dying, but COBOL, which was *supposed* to die -- they didn't even bother with 4-digits in the Date datatype -- is alive and well. C++ has acheieved a level of use which will preclude its disappearance for over a hundred years. It simply costs too much to recode stuff, and people keep using and maintaining the old stuff. Did you know... - That nearly all structural seismic code is written in Fortran? - That lots of banking and accounting code is still COBOL? - That the City of San Francisco still has 1200 *mechanical* traffic signal controllers? Stuff gets built, and they seem to live until they wear out. Thing is, with the exception of the 2000-bug, software seems to have a pretty good wear-factor. C++ will too. On the other hand, if you want to stay on the edge, start learning Java now so you don't get caught off guard when (not if) it becomes popular.
Date: 2 February 97, 3:20 EDT From: Jeremiah S. Talkar Email: JTalkar@Optika.comJust a few years ago, developers working on any decent sized software project would have more or less similar skills ( either all C / Assembly, C/C++, Cobol etc. ). A particular PROGRAMMING language would be selected for the development and then the entire system would be developed using that language along with the available tools that supported that language. Today, the situation is very different. My experience over the past 2 1/2 years has been that programming teams are comprised of people with very different skill sets who work on different sub-systems within the software system. Each major language has carved a NICHE for itself and skilled programmers in that language will never have to worry about becoming obsolute. Microsoft has realized this too and it's VISUAL STUDIO 97 provides for C/C++, Jave, VB, Fortran etc within the same IDE. The VStudio home page also gives examples about how various modules can be developed using one of the above language. Of course, there is some overlap ( VB 5.0 programmers can write ActiveX controls ), but each still has it's own place in the PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES HALL OF FAME. Finally, I was able to start using Java without any problems and hence other ( good ) C++ programmers should have a similar experience too.
Date: 24 February 97, 16:14 EDT From: e to i pi plus oneI'm still waiting for many people to START coding in C++ (or at least start proving that they can). One of the benefits of C++ is code re-use (yeah, yeah, I know what you're going to say, don't flame me, I said ONE of them). And yet so much of the production code that I see is just C code squashed into class winzard. If many people used C++ in a more OO fashion then we'd see more reusable classes out there. With the exceptions of WFC, Stingray, Poul Costinsky's stuff and one or two other class libraries out there, no-one seems to be publishing any good class libraries. I can only think of three reasons. 1) We're happier whinging about MFC than fixing it 2) We can't write good C++ 3) Our contracts prohibit us from publish stuff on the web. I'd like to see a thread asking "Is C++ alive?"
Date: 10 April 97, 23:42 EDT From: David Cunningham/DUNDAS Email: davec@dundas.comHmmm, tough question. There is very little excitement about C++ these days. All the press is going to either Java or VB, and a battle is on the horizon. With regard to C++, well, looking at the number of enhancements in VB5 vs. VC5 and I think you can draw some solid conclusions about where MS wants the market to go. C++ still offers the power, flexibility and speed we have grown to know and love but has been watered down over time. Developers are increasingly dependant upon frameworks such as MFC to complete their apps, and these frameworks steal a great deal of the speed from our apps and add a great deal of bloat. Were looking at a world where C++ apps are getting fatter and slower, and VB and Java apps are getting smaller and faster. Unless something changes, were on a pretty clear path. My two cents. (check out our site for some tight MFC/C++ classes
www.dunda.com)
Date: 18 April 97, 15:49 EDT From: TVR Email: XS4ALLNo language is dying because ther are always peoples that want's to program in a language that's for other people dying. I started in assembly but because the assemblers are pore in user interface's i stepped over to C/C++ maybe in a year or two i have to do all it over maybe VB or JAVE or that kind of shit. I all i want to say it has something to with the support from the big company's that gives us the tools.
Date: 12 May 97, 7:22 EDT From: Deepak Shenoy Email: dshenoy@icodeindia.soft.netCan Java match C++? Java may be just great on web pages, but as an application development language, it sucks. I tried to use Sun's JavaBeans as a component object model but it made my P-133 look like a retard. (with P-200's et. al. in the market, it probably is ) Some other programs made me want to go back to DOS. True, Java is cool. But its ahead of its time, and thats why it cannot be ignored . Its just not for the real world apps. We don't want to wait for the time it'll be great to use, we want to use something thats great NOW. Or even tomorrow. But not next week. C++ may not be perfect, but it gets the job done.
Date: 15 July 97, 3:19 EDT From: Martin Hinchy Email: martin.hinchy@qrail.com.auC++ will be around for a long time. Virtually all of Microsofts products are written in C++ (including J++). We develop real time train control applications in C++. Try doing that with an interpreter like Java.
Date: 17 July 97, 15:59 EDT From: Robert Altman Email: RobertA@rainier.comC++ Dying? Would you trust mission critical timing intensive airplane control software written in Visual Basic? The PathFinder descent sequence for a carefully sculpted pyrotechnical dance where every explosive had to be timed perfectly. It was written in C/C++. Each development need requires a different development toolset. As the domain space of development problems increase, so will the need for each tool, as well as for new tools. The only languages that die are the ones that don't meet any needs. As long as software systems require complex architecture, robustness, and reliability, C++ is far from dead.
Date: 25 July 97, 1:05 EDT From: Pete Delgado Email: Peter.Delgado@sdrc.comI think it's interesting to see so many comments that *almost* get to the point. It seems to me that there is a place for C++, Java, COBOL and yes, even Visual BASIC. Different languages are designed with different purposes in mind. FORTRAN and COBOL are prime examples of this. I think that the development tools and tool vendors are finally beginning to realize what has been obvious to many developers for many years and that is that no one language is suitable for all projects. So in other words, I don't think C++ is dying. I just believe that people are just using it when the language features dictate that it is the best language for the partcular project or application. PS: To all of the managers who think that *anyone* can be a visual BASIC programmer, please, don't *ever* hire me to modify or maintain that code. I took over one such project written in UNIX Bourne shell script that had if statements nested 32 levels deep! Thank God that so called manager/programmer decided to retire! We retired her shell scripts and replaced them with robust C programs and reduced our support load by ~80%!
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