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Breaking into the Biz
Date: 6 June 96, 11:53 EDT From: Michael Smolinski Email: msmolins@glenayre.comI would like to know how you would go about starting out in the consulting buisness. For example, I would like to know: (1) How to get your first client? (2) Do you need to make an official contract? (3) How much do you charge? ... and a lot of other things, but I'll keep it short for now. I'm fairly new to MFC, but I have a lot of programming experience and I would like to break into the market. If some of you veteren consultants out there would like to share some of your experiences with us little guys, I would be very grateful.
Date: 6 June 96, 16:16 EDT From: Alan LazarusThe way I broke in was to join a consulting company as an employee. The reps there were very good at placing people who had little or no consulting experience. Sometimes they would give the client a price break for the first month or two. After about a year, I found a good broker who agreed to market me. He placed me, and I've been doing business with him ever since. I like not having to deal with getting the next gig, but I don't like the somewhat limited choice of gigs. You can't have everything, and I'd rather make good money and risk being slightly bored a few months at a time. As for the rates, I do VB and VC++ work, and right now I'm getting just over $60/hour.
Date: 6 June 96, 19:43 EDT From: Chris Meech Email: crmeech@osha.igs.netI'm not one with lots of experience, as I'm working on my first contract right now. But for me I just reached a point where it became more important for me to control what I worked on, when I worked on it and what my future development will be. I searched around for a broker, yes there are lots, but find someone you are comfortable dealing with, and now I'm quite satisfied. I expect to continue to use a broker up until a time where more sites such as this one provide an area where those seeking contractors and those who are contractors can 'meet' and establish initial contact.
Date: 7 June 96, 23:56 EDT From: Adam MarksIs it usually expected that the consultant provide the applicable programming tools? What about specialized tools, such as an OCX control?
Date: 8 June 96, 22:34 EDT From: George Grant Email: ggrant@ns.netI was just placed by a broker, and I'm going to be starting my first "gig" in a couple of weeks. Are there any "gotchas" that I should be looking out for once I get going?
Date: 8 June 96, 23:01 EDT From: Alan LazarusThere are only two "gotchas" I can think of at the moment. The first is to make sure you don't get locked into a long-term contract that you can't get out of. Always make sure you have an "out" clause, where you can get out of the contract at any time, as long as you give 30 days written notice. The other thing is to watch out for being considered an employee by the IRS. Having a broker is a good way to avoid this problem. For instance, if the person paying you can determine when you come in to work, what tools you use, and requires progress reports, you are at risk of being considered an employee. That's bad for the person hiring you, and it means that all your business deductions go out the window. I'm not an expert on this by any means, so please talk to a competent accountant. There are many other criteria the IRS use to determine whether you are considered an employee. And, of course, it only comes into play if you get audited. I hear that your chances of being audited go down if you are incorporated. Anyway, if you go through a broker, *he* is the one who pays you. That means that you and the client you are working for don't have to worry as much. For instance, if XYZ Corp wants you to file weekly progress reports, it's okay, because they aren't paying *you*. They are paying your broker. Since your broker doesn't require weekly progress reports from you, the spectre of the employee/employer relationship never rears its ugly head.
Date: 9 June 96, 14:49 EDT From: Greg Montgomery Email: gregm@cc.gatech.eduCan anyone give some pros/cons of consulting in our industry? I'm currently in college for a C.S. degree and employed as a programmer and I'm a little nervous about the financial uncertainity of consulting, but assuming jobs are steady, the pay does seem to be a lot better consulting.
Date: 10 June 96, 23:50 EDT From: Alan LazarusI think the pros and cons are, for the most part, pretty obvious. Benefits versus no benefits, security versus no security, etc. But, you know, *no one* is secure. In my last contract, the client I worked for had two rounds of layoffs while I was there, and I survived. A lot of "secure" employees I had gotten to know did not. So who's more secure? Also, I'm making almost double what they are. The average programmer/analyst was making about $50,000. In the last two years I pulled in over double that amount each year. I can't get unemployment, but who cares? I have a lot of money saved -- enough to quit working for two years if I wanted to. Now, you're probably not going to make that kind of money right out of college, but as soon as you can, I'd recommend trying consulting as an employee of a consulting company. That's how I started. It was a "safer" way to test the waters. I liked it, so I became independent. Hope this helps!
Date: 12 June 96, 19:22 EDT From: Bill ChenI am now kind of locked into a contract. I can't say it was orginally a long term one, but certainly longer than the client and I expected because there are a lot to be done. My question is how I can get out this without hurting my relationship with the client. Also, what should I do in the future? Should I tell them in the beginning that I can only work for them a certain period of time?
Date: 12 June 96, 22:09 EDT From: Alan LazarusSomeone else might be able to answer that better than I can, but I'll offer a suggestion anyway. Make the contract based either on a hard deadline, or on a milestone with details that are clearly delineated. Let the client know that you are agreeing to fulfill *that* contract. Later, if they introduce work outside the scope of the original contract, let them know that you can't work on it, or that it would require an extension. At any rate, there must be a pre-defined *end* to the contract. Also, try to include a clause on a very long contract (over a year) that allows you to exit gracefully if you give them sufficient notice. The third suggestion I might offer is to try working through a broker. Often, *they* take on the burden of replacing you if you want out. A good one will know that you're getting burnt out, and will take steps to help you bow out gracefully.
Date: 19 June 96, 10:45 EDT From: Steven Kefford Email: ske@flsco.fls.dkHi everybody, Does anybody have any non-USA experience? I am currently in Denmark and am considering starting out as a consultant. While a lot of the comments are relevant, if anybody had anything that was specific to (in my case) Denmark, it would be a great help. Thanks. Steve Kefford.
Date: 19 June 96, 21:52 EDT From: cooper Email: cooper@proton.llumc.eduI've been contracting for many years. I started out with a large consulting agency (we don't call them brokers on the West Coast). I've been an independent contractor for several years. Throughout the many years, I have worked with several other consultants. So, when one contract ends, I can always get several leads on new ones (the MBA term is "networking"). A valuable tip: Try to have at least 2 contracts at a time, one full-time and one part-time. Some clients can be very fickle. So, if one contracts should unexpectedly terminate you can always work the other one.
Date: 24 June 96, 12:00 EDT From: MikeHow do you go about finding a broker? I really don't have any contacts as I am not currently in the consulting busness. So, the "word of mouth" method wouldn't work in my case. Are they under "Business consultants" in the yellow pages?
Date: 10 July 96, 12:12 EDT From: Dal Viking Email: 74067.2115@Compuserve.comWhere can I find out the current rates for consultant in a given area ? Also, I am looking for a good broker in Dallas area -- if anybody can help, I'll appreciate. What are pros and cons of incorporating ?
Date: 11 July 96, 19:05 EDT From: Bill ChenAs a contractor, you will probably make 1.5 - 2 times of what you are making as a full-time employee, in terms of straight working hours. Suppose you can find a full-time job at 60K. That is about $30/hour. Then you can ask for $45 - $60/hour as a contractor.
Date: 11 July 96, 20:30 EDT From: Rick Braley Email: braley@sky.netMy question to the the acting independents is this: Do you feel it is best to specialize in some area or is it better to have multiple skills which can be marketed? Which skills would be the best to specialize in?
Date: 12 July 96, 16:36 EDT From: Hung Liu Email: hliu@ece.uci.eduFor the veterans and those just breaking into contracting, how did you decide, ok, I'm good enough to handle whatever task they throw at me? Also, what are some of the typical time ranges of your contracts?
Date: 3 August 96, 18:15 EDT From: Rick Braley Email: braley@sky.netIt appears that no one wants to participate in the discussion. I posted a question but no one has responded. Come on folks, lets share some ideas!
Date: 5 August 96, 18:21 EDT From: Eric Jonvel Email: not yet aviable...Hello Boys... You know, I use Web for 4 month ago. Y've got a lot of troubles with my phone compagny. I 've stop to be out in the night (almost, because i remeber of a saturday's night...) So i don't request your care for talking of this. Y've a projet to become an independant develloper (you say 'contractor'?). I'll be happy to know if it's possible to work with US compagny... ( oh .. y forget y'm french : and y like type 'y' for 'I'). Y'm being to make an intranet for my actual compagnie. It's so funny... I use NT and y 've got some gently hours with DNS .. But know y can do that in five minutes... In fact I know very well MFC 4.x, VB, W95, NT, W3.x and AS/400 (IBM!). What's the love degree for AS/400 in US? Y know you don't care about, but in FRANCE we can now pay only(!!!) almost one franc per two minute whatwhere the isp. The only trouble it that I've been disconnect four time during writing this post... I HATE this trouble !!!! Don't forget my care ... THANK's
Date: 31 August 96, 11:36 EDT From: Alan LazarusThis is in answer to Rick Braley's question. I think it's best to BOTH specialize AND generalize. Clients want you to know everything! But seriously, I'd recommend you specialize in one thing, and then expose yourself to as many alternatives as possible. You never really know where technology is going to go, so it's best to be something of a renaissance man. Plus, there are lots of projects that use multiple technologies. Let's say you get a contract on a project converting from Visual Basic to Power Builder. It would help to know a little about each. But also, being good at SQL would be a big plus. Also, if you know SQL Server, you can help the DBA's get their act together. How about writing a DLL or an OCX for the project? If you know C++ or Delphi, you've got a leg-up on someone else. Often you don't have to be an expert -- just know enough to talk the talk and to be confident that, given a few days, you could pick up the skills. HTH...
Date: 31 August 96, 11:41 EDT From: Alan LazarusThis is in response to Bill Chen's response. I disagree that you can just multiply your current salary and charge that much. That's a decent estimate, but every metro area has its own price range, and it's best to find out what that is. Ask around. In the Philly area, I can make between $50 and $65 an hour doing VB work. I can make up to $75 an hour doing C++ work, but that's harder to come by in this area. In other areas, the rates will be different. Bill's method, again, is a good ESTIMATE. But it's best to ask around your metro area and find out for sure.
Date: 31 August 96, 11:47 EDT From: Alan LazarusThis is in answer to Dal Viking's questions. I think the best way to find a good broker is word-of-mouth. It's the best way to find ANYTHING, actually. Join a consulting organization in your area, or the chamber of commerce, or the Rotary Club, or a user group, or whatever can get you networked with other consultants. Join a consulting company as an employee if you like (if it makes you feel safer). You'll definitely meet other consultants that way. As for incorporation, if you want to be an independent, you really should do it. I absolutely HAD to do it: most brokers wouldn't take me otherwise. HTH...
Date: 7 September 96, 17:37 EDT From: Yevgeny Kolyakov Email: Yevgeny@BrightSoft.comSome people think that being a consultant is just a matter of finding a broker and a client. I don't think this is true. My definition of consultatant is somebody who is highly skilled in some area, MFC, for example, and is able to perform his work alone, mentoring junior programmers. I say this because I had a contract (my first to be exact) where the manager intentionally gave my a nearly impossible project schedule with many milesone reporting every other day. Luckily for me I made it, but if I didn't have much experience in that area, I would have been out of there in a flash. That's what happened to my colleague. He was kicked out of the company very shortly after he started. "Your skills were not as professional as you've presented yourself on the interview". -- which may have been true... The guy was pissed off for weeks - not a very pleasant experience he said and I can believe it. In other words, one should become a consultant when he is really sure that he is good and he has been clicking on a keyboard for many years.
Date: 25 October 96, 24:08 EDT From: Frank Hartmann Email: CPlusPlusPro@pc-wizard.comI would just like to agree with Yevgeny Kolyakov's statement regarding the importance of an area of expertise. My current contract is with a local OEM firm developing a Win32 MFC product for the first time. (All of their past products have been targeted at the AS400 platform.) What they needed desperately is someone to come into their firm and add a specific area of expertise that they recognized that they did not possess. There was going to be no time for on-the-job training or any such thing. That's why they went with a consultant, i.e., an expert in a specific field to 'consult' them.
Date: 27 November 96, 13:31 EDT From: Gordon Lee Email: glee@teir.comI'm thinking about doing some consulting in the future. Any ideas on what the going rates are in the Wash DC area for Unix/X-Windows/MFC/C++ development?
Date: 12 January 97, 19:26 EDT From: soorya Email: sooryar@hotmail.comHow difficult is it get a part time work? where do I get the information in the net about such jobs.
Date: 21 January 97, 3:15 EDT From: moazzem Email: moazzemh@cyberstate.infi.netIt is not difficult to get a part time job in programming if you are in a big city. I have full time job and just got a part time contract. I can get some part time teaching/traing job also but I decline those. Look at your newspaper and try to meet people in your line of expertise.
Date: 22 January 97, 22:20 EDT From: Jim McCreary Email: jimmc@net1.netBiggest tip I can make, working mostly out of my home office, but sometimes on site, I tell new clients that I can only committ half time. If they are the only current work, I give them full time but try to have two projects going. This means that I sometimes work more hours than I really want to but when the project goes to the client for testing, or when I have a question and their priority is not providing an answer, I just work on the other project. Otherwise I would have unchargable slack time.
Date: 16 February 97, 23:51 EDT From: Ashim Bhuyan Email: abhuyan@magicnet.netI'm a full-time employee in a software development company. I'm interested in doing consulting on a part-time basis. Will appreciate any pointers in that direction. Do I need to incorporate? How do I find out contracts? Is it LEGAL? Will appreciate any feedback.
Date: 12 March 97, 3:31 EDT From: P.B.Raja Devanath Email: pbraja@hclt.comI have got a H1 sponsored from a consulting company. They haven't called me for a long time. Can I go to a different company with the same visa. Any details regarding this would be appreciated.
Date: 19 April 97, 13:08 EDT From: Ramon PUIGGRÒS i ROSA Email: puiggros@ceina.esHow can I put a toolbar to the window's position whre I want ? It's not necessary to answer using the parameter CRect since it doesn't work a member function Thank you
Date: 14 May 97, 5:25 EDT From: Ramon PUIGGRÒS Email: puiggros@ceina.esHow send FILES in Internet with MFC 4.2?Any idea please Thanks
Date: 6 July 97, 12:44 EDT From: Mark Richman Email: mrichman@li.netI am currently working as a programmer for a LARGE software company...maybe too large. I am constantly worried that I will get canned because they can replace me with someone who will work for less. I make $30,000/year with no extra pay for overtime. I've been working there for six months and I just graduated college. I'd prefer to work for myself and charge about $65/hour. Any input regarding my situation would be greatly appreciated by email. Thanks.
Date: 16 July 97, 9:53 EDT From: Duane SalleeThe 'Consultants' threads are great!
Date: 16 July 97, 9:59 EDT From: Duane Sallee
Anyway, I hope I don't muddy the waters here, but how does independent consulting affect family life (wife & kids)? I am seriously considering going independent (I work for a consulting firm now), but I don't want to have to relocate. Nobody has said anything concerning family, so does anyone here married or have kids? Thanks for the time and info.
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